Intelligent Design or Evolution

[Patrick]

This is a bit of a controversial matter, but considering how hackers tend to be think outside of the box I was curious about your stand in this matter.

Personally I believe in evolution.

edit: I decided up edit this duo poor wording from me. Thanks for pointing it out mindcorrosive :-)

[mindcorrosive]

I don't think that we are necessarily "smarter" than your "average Joe". We simply have a different area of expertise than most other people. I mean, how many football fans do you know, and how many LISP hackers? This does not make us more proficient in e.g. arts, literature, finance, sports, or, for that matter, adequate social behaviour - these are unrelated.

To think of yourself as an elitist does not bring you any good - and this is a lesson learnt sooner than later - because there always *is* a problem you cannot solve.

Back to the question: I'd call it "random number generator" :)

[Patrick]

You're right, I didn't mean to come off as an elitist, so sorry if I did. Bad wording on my side.

However I've noticed that hackers tend to look at things differently. Try to twist and turn something they're working on to test the limit of an application or to find flaws which can be potentially abused. This is what I meant.

[mindcorrosive]

No, I understood you perfectly.. But just wanted to make it absolutely clear - since there are a lot of people having a misconcept about the term "hacker".

And yes, part of the "hacker" mindset is to think "outside the box", and that explains the creativity and (sometimes) the sheer weirdness of some community members :)

[Forrest666]

I believe evolution... it is the most logical explanation (or the ONLY logical explanation).

About the smartness... well;
Evolution is adaptation. If surviving demand us to be smarter, we will only survive if we get smarter, if it demand us to be stronger but stupid, this is what we will become, otherwise we get selected for extinction.

The funny thing about I.D. is:
Religion is trying to envolve for not getting extinct. As it has envolved so far through its history.
I.D. is a attempt to explain "logically" the Creationist Theory.

[camilo]

Who says that evolution is not some sort of intelligent design? I mean, look at the meaning of the word: Evolution, to evolve, to adapt yourself to the environment. And how do you adapt? By thinking how to fit better. And this is made by using your intelligence. Put a rock in a desert and it won't evolve. Force a computer to run a program one million times, and it won't evolve. Because they don't have intelligence.
So, I think that living creatures used their intelligence to evolve. But how did they? I mean, look at fishes in the sea, they don't look really smart, do they? And how did they evolved to walking creatures? Is something really strange. I like to think that there's some sort of collective intelligence in the world, like we are all part of a living creature (or force) who possess the intelligence to make us evolve. Not god, at least not god as religions try to make us think.

[mindcorrosive]

What you said basically is true, but when you take for granted that humans are the ultimate and absolute measure of intelligence. The fact that fish don't *look* smart doesn't mean they are not - it might be the case, but you cannot take it for granted.. Fish might not speak simply because they don't feel like having anything to share with us - mere humans.. You don't (usually) speak to insects, do you?..

The collective intelligence theory is interesting, and I have thought about it myself, but there is no way to prove or disprove it from the position where we stand..

[Patrick]

If I understand you correctly you are talking about lamarckism?

A rock won't evolve because a rock is not a living creature, neither is a computer.
It's not as much as an attempt to fit better, but to generate offspring that survives. If you had some trait, as a result from a genetic mutation, which was favorable in your specie, then this might give you a better advantage to generate an offspring compared to your friends. As a result your offspring will have that gene and(this depends on dominant/recessive genes and some other things) it might have this advantage too.

At some point there were no creatures walking on land. This meant no predators which would result in those animals that could eventually crawl up on land and lay eggs(Not necessarily on land, but in puddles), a better advantage at generating offspring.

[Paddington Bear]

I believe in "believe what you want, but it's fucking SCIENCE class so teach SCIENCE not RELIGION".

[camilo]

Interesting point, pretty much useless after school :)

@mindcorrosive: Well, I talk to insects but that's not the point, the thing is that, ok, fishes may be smart, but they don't have the ability to change his body. They don't go and say "Fuck this, I want to walk around and feel the cold breeze in my hair...", because first: they don't have hair and second, they can't change their anatomy like they were doing magic. The "conclussions" or the "intelligence" must be stored somewhere and transmitted to the next generations. In the genes? Perhaps. But then, where do genes came from? We can discuss this for years and years, and we would never come to an agreement. I guess all we can do is to try and enjoy the world and learn a lot, hack a lot, get married and buy some of those smart-ass fishes to see if they can evolve.

[mindcorrosive]

Very true, my man.. We should watch those fishes, they are *really* suspicious :)

[Forrest666]

To explain what evolution realy is we must first define what causes it.

So, what causes evolution?
Mutation. A random mutation on every being when it is fecundated.
So it is impossible a son be identical to his father (even with this clone thing).
A son will have diferent characteristics from his father and this will determine if this new being is more or less able to survive on the enviroment.
For example: This new being is more hairy. if it was about 20.000 yeas behind he would be more successful on the enviroment because we was having the glacial age, with more hair he would handle the cold better. But now a days... we cut our hairs! someone with more hair would live harder tham one with less hair.
These little characteristics define the natural selection.

So, what is evolution?
I dont think evolution is controled by a inteligent bein. if this is true why does there are so many extinct species? Why there isn't a perfect specie? And... why do we have appendicitis? O.o

Evolution is a result, a consequence, not a choice.

[mindcorrosive]

At least, it's not *our* choice.. The fact that we are evolving does not mean this is not arranged for by a superior sentient being, of which we are unaware.. And provided that this being exists, it might not be "benevolent" in the way we want it to be - we might be simply ants in a cruel child's terrarium for all we know..

Okay, enough philosophy for today, back to LISP :)